Hi and welcome to The Ladybird Purse, my weekly newsletter about women and money. I’m not a financial advisor and am in no way qualified to give financial advice. Sorry about that.
Last week, Chloe suggested a Ladybird Purse playlist and this week, Danusia’s made one! Scroll down for a link and to read her excellent interview.
As promised on Monday, a second free post this week. Have any of you watched Loot on AppleTV?
I enjoyed both seasons, but I do agree with this article (full of spoilers, so don’t read if you haven’t watched). But I love the actors and the characters and it makes me laugh so I’m going to keep watching anyway.
But a moment in the latest season reminded me of something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately. One character is putting on a show and says the tickets cost $3.75. Another character, Rhonda - I don’t remember if they ever said her age, but the actor playing her, Meagen Fay is 67 - replies that she’s good for the 75c but she’s going to need a few days for the three dollars.
And if that ain’t me. I mean, things aren’t that bad. Right now. But they have been. And could be again. I know it’s not funny, not really. But it made me laugh anyway.
(But also, don’t worry about me. I have money coming soon-ish - although if you have been wavering about upgrading, now would be a great time to do it - and I have A PLAN. Which I will write more about soon.)
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An interview with Danusia Malina-Derben
Danusia Malina-Derben is a mother of ten children, and still her own woman.
From teen mother to tenured Organisational Behaviour and Development academic and onto award-winning internationally published leadership expert, Danusia traded academia to head a global firm that fixes corporate boardrooms and develops top talent.
She hosts critically acclaimed podcast Parents Who Think (formerly School for Mothers). She wrote, NOISE: A Manifesto Modernising Motherhood (Triumph Press, 2021) blending memoir, manifesto, and action and in 2022 followed this with SPUNK: A Manifesto Modernising Fatherhood (Triumph Press, 2022).
Danusia lives in Somerset with her family.
What is your relationship with money currently?
Forgive me for sounding wanky but as I write I’m ‘in flow’ with money. I’m full of hope and know the future is bright.
This isn’t linked to accounts full of money (though this helps if it’s the case), it’s about my relationship to it. Tomorrow I may be anxious, frantic or in denial. Little in my financial situation will have changed.
I oscillate between trusting the process of life to take care of me (it does) and forgetting that this is the case. I’ve plenty of evidence to lean into about the times I’ve only had the train fare to get to an opportunity and yay that goes well, and I declare, “we can eat!” in a theatrical gesture.
One of my favourite moments on stage, when I was on a panel talking about money with other female founders, was the moment I told the audience what I charge per day. I was itching to break the euphemistic non-specific way money was being talked about.
How can we be empowered to negotiate salaries, ask for a raise, set fees and other terms in our businesses, and maybe even invest when money is shrouded in a cloak of silence?
On the other hand, we’re exposed to over loud declarations of people who say they make 6/7/8 figures all while spreading butter on their morning toast.
I love money transparency conversations. Let’s have more of them.
One caveat: I interviewed a tax specialist and she mentioned HMRC scrape the internet routinely for financial information. She describes how their software gleans info that builds a money picture on people. I include this as someone who underwent and resolved a lengthy HMRC tax investigation. I’m willing to talk about this because it’s an elephant in the money area.
I wonder if you wouldn't mind going into more detail about what you charget, etc? I always love to hear it and usually am too nervous to ask!
I'm going to go a little bit sideways on this. I like to apply real life examples to my business. For more than a hundred years it was thought the human body couldn’t run a four-minute mile. Why? Because no-one managed to do it. So when Roger Bannister achieved this in 1954 everyone’s perceptions of what was possible changed. A new reality and new standard for runners was birthed.
Financial and pay transparency is the same. It allows others to see what’s possible. It can inspire everyone, especially those who are statistically less likely to reach certain income levels or be in positions of power. The crux is that plonking down my day rate here would be one dimensional and a ‘disservice’ as just a number. Here’s why:
It would show what’s been possible for me to accomplish but it wouldn’t unpack the conditions in which this is possible or how much graft it’s taken. It wouldn’t teach about other data points and information that sets it in context, and that’s vital. Creating, building and scaling a career or business isn’t all rainbows and sunshine - this is often missed in discussions about financial transparency.
On top of this women face a double-edged sword when we self-promote but it’s razor-sharp when we reveal figures publicly. When we’re seen to be bragging about accomplishments (including money) we’re perceived as competent but unlikeable. If we decide to be modest or self-deprecating we are liked but are seen as less competent.
It’s a double bind and I’m torn here in this written interview. I want to inspire women, mothers especially, about their worth and what is possible but not to a point where it doesn’t feel good or feels like I’m over-exposed. Which is why in the context of a quiet verbal discussion (in person, maybe on a podcast or speaking gig) I talk about my day rate and what it’s taken to be a high-ticket consultant.
Final point. The quiet ones without social media razzmatazz are often the ones that earn the most. Empty barrels make the most noise!
How did you get started with your business?
I was an academic but traded tenure to launch a consulting advisory company to C-suite teams and Boards with a focus on leadership. It’s about peak performance and mental toughness (including vulnerability) at senior levels. I also mentor creatives, Founders, and Olympians across different sports.
Building this firm was accidental. I was about to go on my first maternity leave with my sixth child, Isadora. A post graduate student who was a senior leader in a high street food retailer asked me what I was doing in academia I’d just been offered a promotion I’d take up on my return and this leader suggested I reconsider that offer. He said it was too limiting. During my maternity leave I set up my own company, returned to academia then a year later left to build my business. It was terrifying and enthralling all at once.
I’ve been blessed with a small but mighty bunch of exceptional mentors who took me under their wing throughout my life. I asked Carole Stone, who is in her eighties now, where I could find an ordinary woman with loads of kids doing big things in business. She turned to me and said, “Stop looking for that woman. You’ll have to become her.” I was like, “that wasn’t the answer I was looking for!” That hit me square between the eyes.
Mentors helped remove obstacles, steered me, opened up doors and introduced me to some great people that accelerated my learning curve and my path. I’ve a passion for mentoring people and to this day offer scholarships to support those hellbent on growing themselves and their impact.
How do you financially manage ten children?
Seven of my ten children are grown and flown. The triplets are tweens and home educated. It’s a lot of children to finance.
I’m used to ‘getting on with it’ and using methods I learned as a child being raised by my (adopted) parents who both lived in World War 2. They were generationally like my grandparents or even great grandparents age so I’m a make do and mend person.
Being aware of what we need rather than what we want is a great starting point. My parents instilled an interesting blend of frugality and quality into me. Being strict and disciplined around money were two cornerstones of my childhood.
The principles of mental agility in leadership translate to financial agility. It’s an ability to be flexible and adaptable to whatever circumstance comes our way so that we can respond in the most healthy and positive way we can in that moment. This comes with facing tough situations that come our way that we don't expect And so our ability to respond to that and be adaptable and flexible is really important.
Practically: we home swap (always up for offers), buy second hand 98% of the time, and don’t make impulsive buys.
What have you taught your children about money?
The easiest way to answer this was to ask my children. I realised there could be a gap between what I think I taught them and what they learned.
One said that I’ve taught her that “money will come”. That witnessing me being an entrepreneur showed her about taking personal responsibility for our choices. Another said I taught him to be resourceful, to seek out deals and to negotiate. And that there’s more than enough to go round in the world.
Humans are storytellers so the stories we tell ourselves about money are powerful. One daughter recounted when I told the kids that each day, we must imagine lorries full of money being delivered to our house. She went to school and told her whole class that we were expecting lorries of cash to land at ours. I was pulled aside by the teacher as my daughter was vehement these lorries were going to arrive!
This summer the triplets are conducting a comparative analysis of fish & chips shops. We share or this research would cost a fortune. We’re using different metrics to analyse our experience of each retail outlet’s meal, i.e. cost, amount of salt and vinegar, customer service, time to wait, curry sauce, portion size, etc. We score each element individually to calculate an overall score for the shop. As part of this fish and chips adventure we’re exploring cost of raw materials and energy, rent or mortgage for the shop, profit and loss, wages and pay levels, bills, saving, and tax.
Also, one of the triplets is interested in trading and economics so he teaches us what he’s learning. Money is not often taught in school. After summer we plan to get going on this free open university managing money course. There’s so much more to learn about money beyond getting pocket money!
What’s your earliest money memory?
My mother handed a small red purse to one of my older brothers and he was told we were being given a treat. She explained to us both that he was in charge of taking me to the tiny sweet shop run by an elderly woman called Mrs Trudgeon. On rare occasions my mother took us there to choose penny sweets we’d drop in small paperbags and scoff within seconds. My favourite sweets were Fruit Salads and sugar mice.
On this ‘special’ day my brother was given instructions that we were being trusted to go alone. En route I begged my brother to give me my half of the money. He held onto the rest in the purse. I remember clutching the coins in my hand. Next, I convinced him to share his sweets with me so that I could keep this cash. Last, he agreed to not tell our mother what I asked him to do.
Fast forward to a year ago on one of my visits to see my brother in hospital. He reminded me of this story, and laughed hard about how scared he was of Mrs Trudgeon and of our mother finding out about me keeping that money. I wish I could remember how much money we were given to spend. It was a beautiful moment to share - it was also one of his last lucid moments before he died.
P.S. I hid the money wrapped in tissue in an empty tobacco tin I’d snuck into my room. I couldn’t know this would be the base of ‘rainy day’ and ‘escape’ funds for the rest of my life.
What advice would you give your younger self about money?
Dear little Danusia,
Here’s some advice about money. When you want to go somewhere you need directions, right? Getting good at money matters is like that. You need a map to follow to get to what you want. First, answer this: “What do you want money to do for you?”
Now you’ve got ideas about that, it’s time to educate yourself on all thing’s money. Learn about the basics, it will help. Go to the library and borrow books on money. Join the worldwide library app Libby to access audio and magazines too. There are also lots of podcasts about money. You Need a Budget is a show to start with, The Wallet is one for women’s finances.
How about this: experiment with the concept that what you focus on expands. Try this with money. One way to do this (as well as books, podcasts, and magazines on the subject) is to listen to music about money. I’ve made you, and readers, a Money Playlist to help you focus on money and wealth. Finally, look around to see if there’s a local Money Club you could join, once you’ve got your basics covered. I believe in you,
Your older self xx
What’s the biggest money mistake you’ve made?
Putting other people’s interests ahead of my own.
This is a natural extension of what I write about in my motherhood identity book as sacrificial motherhood. We’re expected to sacrifice our time, ambition, and sense of self to a higher purpose - we’re also expected to sacrifice our own economic prosperity to serve others.
Is it any wonder many women focus on money for themselves late(r) in life?
What’s the best thing you’ve ever spent money on?
I invest in quality mattresses and sumptuous mattress toppers. I won’t recommend mattresses because it’s such a personal choice - springs, foam, soft, firm, hard - but these mattress toppers are like sleeping on clouds. They’re expensive but given we spend one third of our life in bed it makes sense.
We do everything in our bed. I work there, we watch movies, and in the mornings the triplets hop in It’s our reset place and default location.
Do you have a pension? If not, do you have a plan?
I have pensions, although I feel I’ve been lax in attending to them. I hope to contribute into another pension There’s a reminder to attend to this is on a to-do list marked in red (for urgent) but there’s hope because a couple of months ago I checked my UK state pension entitlement. This look-see was part of an overall think about money in the future. I found I qualify for a full state pension. Hallelujah for that!
I’d been reading about the gender pensions gap and differences in retirement income or retirement wealth for men and women, and therefore quality of life in later years. One of the different ways the gap can be measured is difference in state pension income.
Figures from the Pension Policy Institute and Now: Pensions show that women are retiring today with average pension savings of £69,000, while men of the same age have a typical pension pot of £205,000 – almost three times larger.
Isn’t that a horrifying gap? And we know that on average women live longer than men so we need more pension wealth to have the same amount of income each year over our later years.
What would you do with £10,000?
There’s this strong belief that where we put our money is what we value!
I’d put £10,000 towards buying a pre-loved old Murvi campervan. This represents freedom, adventure, and funnily enough safety, to me. I’m looking at Murvis because they have enough seat belts in them unlike many other makes. We can’t be adventurous and free if my triplets aren’t secure in our camper.
What little luxury could you get with a tenner?
Bear with me. I’m an accidental art collector. It started when I bought a piece of art in a charity shop for £2. I followed my hunch that it was ‘worth something’ and Bonhams valued it at £2500.
Lots of pieces later I’ve created an eclectic collection. My £10 would be spent on a piece of art or maybe even two pieces if I was lucky. I have an ‘eye’ that spots valuable art at a glance. Who knew?!
If I had to spend a tenner on myself right now (rather than invest) I’d enjoy a cup of Empress Grey tea and a fresh cream mille-feuille while people-watching.
If you were me, what would you want to ask women about money?
If you have a partner, how will the financial decisions/sacrifices you are making now (or have made), serve you if you were to become single?
I love this quote! The quiet ones without social media razzmatazz are often the ones that earn the most. Empty barrels make the most noise!
SO good!