Hi Keris... it was me who was going to ask about getting a part-time job, but then worried how it might read, so panic-deleted it! I love your newsletter. I am skint too. I work part-time whilst writing, but have only been published a few years. I'm always worrying about money and never have any. The little I get I prefer to spend on experiences over savings so I have no savings. I liked your reply, and the conculsion that you don't want to get another/different job. I liked the examination and implications of 'Grown-ups are not artists. Artists do not deserve to make money from their art. "Artist” is not a real job.' because I think I probably subconsciously believe this. I can't even believe I get paid to write (sometimes and not much!)
As for money/time/space to be able to write - have you considered the DYCP ACE grants?
Hi! Thanks for commenting again and I hope you didn't feel called out. It was a good point and made me think.
We sound very similar! Experiences over savings for me too.
And, honestly, I think I subconsciously believe artist isn't a real job too. My 14yo keeps sending me stuff about footballers and last week it was that some club offered Lionel Messi £1bn (BILLION) a year. TO PLAY FOOTBALL. Which would also come under the 'not a real job' umbrella.
I don't need (or want!) a billion. (I don't even need the £22.25 PER SECOND Kylian Mbappé earns at Paris Saint-Germain.) But I think I do need to retrain my brain to believe what I do is real and worth more. (And if someone could convince the publishing industry...)
I got an ACE grant about ten years ago and haven't looked since, but I probably should!
This is me, too. Every time I talk about my current lack of money, I can practically hear people wondering why I don't just get a "real" job, but while there are lots of very good reasons why I haven't (Only being able to work during school hours/in term time, living in the middle of nowhere, being basically unemployable), the main one is that I would hate it. And ultimately I'd rather be poor, and do something I love, than be comfortable but miserable, which is how every job I've ever had has made me feel. I'd obviously do it if I really had to, but it would very much be a last (and temporary) resort for me, which I think a lot of people find really hard to understand.
“I'd rather be poor, and do something I love, than be comfortable but miserable.” Exactly this. Also I want to be around for the boys. (They’re not bothered most of the time, but when they do want to hang out, I like being able to say yes!)
Not called out at all... I'm really glad you addressed it! Yes, I am discovering the belief I'm 'not allowed' to 'just write' is a very deep seated attitude which needs closer examination and unpicking... but then I didn't get an agent til I was 43 so I suppose I'm still in an disbelieving and 'grateful for crumbs' space mentally... tied up a lot in ideas around self-worth etc. A work very much still in progress! ;)
Keris, I'm so glad you brought this up--also E N, of course--because I've spent my entire life trying and failing spectacularly at various jobs whilst trying to be bloody grateful for having them because that was my parents' mentality and I believed it. That was until after I finished the MA which I studied during the latter half of lockdown, and realised I hadn't got any money and knew if I expected the novel I wrote during the MA to find an agent, a publisher that might take another 2 years or so (or longer - or never, knowing my luck) so I had to call the benefits people.
When the usual questions were asked - what had I done, what skills did I have - I just started crying. Proper thick, snotty sobs and told my 'work coach' I didn't really have any. That the only thing I ever thought I was good at was writing and I had never found a job involving that despite applying for every tenuously-linked writing vacancy over the course of 30 years. And now I was 59 and although I'd been trawling all the job sites online, every time I found something I thought I might be able to do (it would have to be sitting down due to fibromyalgia, chronic pain and fatigue) the thought of applying made me feel physically sick and shaky. In fact only recently (to that phone call) I'd been undergoing tests for the chronic diarrhoea I'd had for 5 weeks (this turned out to be caused by anxiety, probably over the whole job-finding thing).
I expected my work coach to remotely clap me round the face and tell me to get a grip, the way my mother would have done; that even if I was stacking shelves in Tesco, it would mean I was a valuable member of the contributing public and I should damn well be grateful for it.
But she didn't.
Work coaches have clearly come a long way since I was signing on in the eighties, having to virtually beg for a stranger's signature in return for £22/week unemployment benefit.
I’m actually planning to write more about this - and you and I have talked about it before, I know - but I just think the whole “value of hard work” proper jobs thing is capitalist bullshit and not what any of us are on earth to do.
I am so glad you finally got an empathetic and understanding work coach and so sorry it took so long.
it really is. It has contributed hugely to my lack of confidence and of valuing myself so little that I consider myself a drain on society and a waste of space generally.
Love this post and all the comments. Doing what you love, following your talent and passion, feeling like you are living your life, properly living it and not just making money so you can live it when you are retired is so important. I've been a freelance writer for 22 years and I've loved my life, even while the people around me have had proper jobs and earned far, far more. Our way is not better or worse, it's just different, and right for us. It is utterly frustrating that talent and hard work is not rewarded by the publishing industry and that definitely needs shaking up. But I can honestly say, if I dropped dead tomorrow, that in being a published author, and being a writer for a living (in various forms) I have achieved the dream I had as a child, I've done what I am here to do, How many people can say that? (I mean, many people wouldn't want to, which is great for them! In some ways our lives would be easier if we weren't artists).
So yes. I am in full agreement with this post and I love that you have said it. Writing is a job. And you - like many of us - are choosing to earn less than our non-writing peers doing something that suits your talents and your life. AND you are supporting that dream by writing things other than novels. I am a Manuscript reader/editor and many of the writers who seek out this service have proper, impressive, well paid jobs. And they want to WRITE! They want to be novelists. And maybe for them, getting a proper job and supporting themselves so they can eventually funnel that money into learning how to write was the right choice for them. Maybe they get the best of both worlds. But it does show that what we have done and what we do, is special. Which we already know, that's why we are so committed to it! And it's good to be reminded that it is a choice.
The question "How much do you want to trust yourself around financial decisions?" really makes me think and recall some bad teaching about finances. How much my parents abandoned their inner voice about their finances and ended up being never enough or too-focus on the future without putting the intention of today's lives. Your interview really helps me to unwire the old opinion about money. Thank you, @Keris.
Yes I always say the phrase "money comes and goes" mostly when I'm stressing about things like over spending or when I will have enough money for something... its a little mantra to stop me from freaking out !
Hi Keris... it was me who was going to ask about getting a part-time job, but then worried how it might read, so panic-deleted it! I love your newsletter. I am skint too. I work part-time whilst writing, but have only been published a few years. I'm always worrying about money and never have any. The little I get I prefer to spend on experiences over savings so I have no savings. I liked your reply, and the conculsion that you don't want to get another/different job. I liked the examination and implications of 'Grown-ups are not artists. Artists do not deserve to make money from their art. "Artist” is not a real job.' because I think I probably subconsciously believe this. I can't even believe I get paid to write (sometimes and not much!)
As for money/time/space to be able to write - have you considered the DYCP ACE grants?
Hi! Thanks for commenting again and I hope you didn't feel called out. It was a good point and made me think.
We sound very similar! Experiences over savings for me too.
And, honestly, I think I subconsciously believe artist isn't a real job too. My 14yo keeps sending me stuff about footballers and last week it was that some club offered Lionel Messi £1bn (BILLION) a year. TO PLAY FOOTBALL. Which would also come under the 'not a real job' umbrella.
I don't need (or want!) a billion. (I don't even need the £22.25 PER SECOND Kylian Mbappé earns at Paris Saint-Germain.) But I think I do need to retrain my brain to believe what I do is real and worth more. (And if someone could convince the publishing industry...)
I got an ACE grant about ten years ago and haven't looked since, but I probably should!
Awww. Thanks so much, @Keris
This is me, too. Every time I talk about my current lack of money, I can practically hear people wondering why I don't just get a "real" job, but while there are lots of very good reasons why I haven't (Only being able to work during school hours/in term time, living in the middle of nowhere, being basically unemployable), the main one is that I would hate it. And ultimately I'd rather be poor, and do something I love, than be comfortable but miserable, which is how every job I've ever had has made me feel. I'd obviously do it if I really had to, but it would very much be a last (and temporary) resort for me, which I think a lot of people find really hard to understand.
“I'd rather be poor, and do something I love, than be comfortable but miserable.” Exactly this. Also I want to be around for the boys. (They’re not bothered most of the time, but when they do want to hang out, I like being able to say yes!)
Not called out at all... I'm really glad you addressed it! Yes, I am discovering the belief I'm 'not allowed' to 'just write' is a very deep seated attitude which needs closer examination and unpicking... but then I didn't get an agent til I was 43 so I suppose I'm still in an disbelieving and 'grateful for crumbs' space mentally... tied up a lot in ideas around self-worth etc. A work very much still in progress! ;)
And publishing will absolutely encourage that attitude, unfortunately.
Congrats on all your success ❤️🫶
Fab to see both of you in the same post! Brilliant interview - thank you 🙏🏻
Thank you!
Keris, I'm so glad you brought this up--also E N, of course--because I've spent my entire life trying and failing spectacularly at various jobs whilst trying to be bloody grateful for having them because that was my parents' mentality and I believed it. That was until after I finished the MA which I studied during the latter half of lockdown, and realised I hadn't got any money and knew if I expected the novel I wrote during the MA to find an agent, a publisher that might take another 2 years or so (or longer - or never, knowing my luck) so I had to call the benefits people.
When the usual questions were asked - what had I done, what skills did I have - I just started crying. Proper thick, snotty sobs and told my 'work coach' I didn't really have any. That the only thing I ever thought I was good at was writing and I had never found a job involving that despite applying for every tenuously-linked writing vacancy over the course of 30 years. And now I was 59 and although I'd been trawling all the job sites online, every time I found something I thought I might be able to do (it would have to be sitting down due to fibromyalgia, chronic pain and fatigue) the thought of applying made me feel physically sick and shaky. In fact only recently (to that phone call) I'd been undergoing tests for the chronic diarrhoea I'd had for 5 weeks (this turned out to be caused by anxiety, probably over the whole job-finding thing).
I expected my work coach to remotely clap me round the face and tell me to get a grip, the way my mother would have done; that even if I was stacking shelves in Tesco, it would mean I was a valuable member of the contributing public and I should damn well be grateful for it.
But she didn't.
Work coaches have clearly come a long way since I was signing on in the eighties, having to virtually beg for a stranger's signature in return for £22/week unemployment benefit.
I’m actually planning to write more about this - and you and I have talked about it before, I know - but I just think the whole “value of hard work” proper jobs thing is capitalist bullshit and not what any of us are on earth to do.
I am so glad you finally got an empathetic and understanding work coach and so sorry it took so long.
it really is. It has contributed hugely to my lack of confidence and of valuing myself so little that I consider myself a drain on society and a waste of space generally.
I know you do. You’re wrong tho xx
Love this post and all the comments. Doing what you love, following your talent and passion, feeling like you are living your life, properly living it and not just making money so you can live it when you are retired is so important. I've been a freelance writer for 22 years and I've loved my life, even while the people around me have had proper jobs and earned far, far more. Our way is not better or worse, it's just different, and right for us. It is utterly frustrating that talent and hard work is not rewarded by the publishing industry and that definitely needs shaking up. But I can honestly say, if I dropped dead tomorrow, that in being a published author, and being a writer for a living (in various forms) I have achieved the dream I had as a child, I've done what I am here to do, How many people can say that? (I mean, many people wouldn't want to, which is great for them! In some ways our lives would be easier if we weren't artists).
So yes. I am in full agreement with this post and I love that you have said it. Writing is a job. And you - like many of us - are choosing to earn less than our non-writing peers doing something that suits your talents and your life. AND you are supporting that dream by writing things other than novels. I am a Manuscript reader/editor and many of the writers who seek out this service have proper, impressive, well paid jobs. And they want to WRITE! They want to be novelists. And maybe for them, getting a proper job and supporting themselves so they can eventually funnel that money into learning how to write was the right choice for them. Maybe they get the best of both worlds. But it does show that what we have done and what we do, is special. Which we already know, that's why we are so committed to it! And it's good to be reminded that it is a choice.
Thank you for this comment!
Brilliant post and comments. "I don't want to" feels shocking to say as an adult, but has such power!
Thank you. It’s funny, so many justifications kept going through my head, but then I was like... why shouldn’t that be enough?
The question "How much do you want to trust yourself around financial decisions?" really makes me think and recall some bad teaching about finances. How much my parents abandoned their inner voice about their finances and ended up being never enough or too-focus on the future without putting the intention of today's lives. Your interview really helps me to unwire the old opinion about money. Thank you, @Keris.
You're so welcome. Thanks for your comment.
Yes I always say the phrase "money comes and goes" mostly when I'm stressing about things like over spending or when I will have enough money for something... its a little mantra to stop me from freaking out !
Yes! I do the same. Or “there’s always more money.”
yes very very important to remember .... even more so in times of financial stress !